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 Post subject: Re: Reasons for holding a Pre-Tribulation Rapture position
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:45 pm
  

sawdust wrote:
DMcKay wrote:

I am not ignoring your question, I am having quite a bit of trouble controlling my fingers to type. I had tried to address this question when you first asked it, and had typed so much addressing your question that it was going to have to be divided into two posts. The problem was, that it was taking me so long to type in the response that I was typing it over several hours. My wife used my computer to send an email to her sister and shut down the Laptop and I lost everything that I had typed.

I won't get into all the detail that I had entered previously, because the answer to your question is based in the Covenants which God made with Israel. In Daniel chapter 12 there is a reference made to a resurrection of a group who go into the Millennial Kingdom. These are the Jews who died believing in and living by faith in the promises of God in the Covenants. These Jews died looking forward to the promise of living in the Millennial Kingdom under the reign of the Son of David. They will be resurrected just as Lazarus was in their physical bodies, with which they can repopulated the Holy Land. During this time they will be subject to keeping the Letter of the Law of Moses, as were are told that the sacrifices will be required during the Millennial Kingdom and that sin will be punished immediately with a rod of iron.

The information that I am skipping was the information that is commonly misunderstood, and that is that while there are many believers, not every believer is a Christian. There are Those who Died in faith before the Flood, Those after the Flood and before Abraham, such as Job. Those who lived according to the promise before the Law of Moses was instituted because people had stopped living by Faith and needed the Law to show them that they were full of sin. Those who followed the Law of Moses by Grace through Faith in God's Word as revealed by the Law. All of those between the Abrahamic Covenant and the Resurrection of Christ lived for the Promise of the Millennial Kingdom.

Don M


No problem Pastor D, I figured the situation may be as you described. I knew you would get back to me eventually. I have come to learn that learning to wait is crucial to the Christian life. :-)

I do understand the different dispensations and that, as you say, not every believer is a Christian. I guess my question was more a technical one regarding the type of body the Jewish believers are raised in. It never occured to me they might be raised in the same physical bodies, ie raised from the dead as Lazarus was, because that type of body could never enter the eternal state following the Millienium. However, based on what you have said, I realise there is nothing that I can see that would preclude them being raised like Lazarus to enter the Millenial rule of Christ then at the end just prior to "all the elements being burned up" (2Pet.3:10) their bodies are transformed and they are given new bodies. (ie receive bodies without a sin nature)

You have given me something to think and study more on. Thanks.

peace

Sawdust,
Thanks for understanding things. Yes, it isn't a topic that is really spoken of very often because there are so many other things that are occurring in that last seven years that it isn't brought up very often. I posted an item that listed the promises that God made to Israel and those made to the church. It also compared the entities showing how completely different they are, and also the use of the term tribulation or trials in Scripture.

The point is that the promise made to the Jews is an "Earthly Kingdom" which is ruled and reigned over by their Messiah the Son of David. There are very few Jews that will actually live through the entire Tribulation. So the faithful Jews who died looking forward to the promised Millennial Kingdom have to be resurrected like Lazarus was, with the same body that he had already died in made whole and healthy. These are the Jewish people who will repopulate the Jewish nation during the Millennial Kingdom. When I was in Bible College I had to write a Paper on a Biblical topic, but as a speculative point of view. I chose what is the shortest verse in Scripture. "Jesus wept."

I had never heard anyone address this verse for some reason or another. I read through the context until it suddenly came to me, Jesus had purposely waited to allow Lazarus to die and then He further delayed action so that by the time He arrived Lazarus had been in the grave long enough to beginning to decompose in the stifling heat of Israel. Jesus also knew that His intention was to prove that He had the power over life and death as well as the resurrection. If He already knew exactly what was going to happen why would He cry?

The a thought struck me, Jesus knew this family intimately. He had spent time teaching all of them and they all had become His disciples. Lazarus, if he was the same man that Jesus alluded to in His account of the rich man and Lazarus, had not had a great life. After Lazarus had died he had gone into Abraham's Bosom the paradise side of Hades where the dead were separated by a wide chasm and the evil dead could witness what they had missed out on because they could see those who lived by faith living in luxury in paradise.

Jesus knew that after living through a hard and difficult life Lazarus was now living in the place where he was beginning to enjoy the benefits of living for God. When Jesus raised Lazarus from the tomb, He had taken Lazarus out of paradise and brought him back to a harsh life in which he would have to suffer death yet again. I believe that Jesus knew just hard that life would be again for Lazarus. As we know after Lazarus was raised from the dead the miracle angered the Jewish leaders and they plotted the deaths of both Jesus and Lazarus. How would you like to return from heaven to a hard and harsh life only to find out that the religious leaders who controlled things in the country in which you lived, again, were out to kill you, again. So Jesus wept, knowing how hard things would be for Lazarus because Jesus was using him for an object lesson.

Don M


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 Post subject: Re: Reasons for holding a Pre-Tribulation Rapture position
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:15 pm
  

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Isa 26:19-21

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
KJV

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 Post subject: Re: Reasons for holding a Pre-Tribulation Rapture position
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:03 am
  

James4_14 wrote:
Isa 26:19-21

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
KJV

James,

From your choice of verses in this post it sounds like you are not one who believes or supports the Pre-Trib Rapture. I'm not going to try and refute your understanding if this is your sincere point of view. However, one thing that you should be aware of is that Isaiah was led of the Holy Spirit to write this book as a synopsis of the entire Bible. I'm not saying that Isaiah was outlining the Bible, but that this book is practically a synopsis of the Bible. It has the same number of chapters as the Bible has books. The chapters which parallel the books of the Old Testament all have similar content to the books of the OT which they compare to. The chapters which parallel the New Testament also have similar content to the NT books which they parallel.

Many scholars have tried to push this similarity too far, but the chapter which you quote these verses from were written to the Jews and not to those of the Body of Christ. The 12th chapter of the Book of Daniel speaks to the Rapture of the Jews who died looking forward to the Millennial Kingdom. When they are raised to live for 1,000 years under the reign of their Messiah they will have physical bodies with which to repopulate the Earth.

Don M


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 Post subject: Re: Reasons for holding a Pre-Tribulation Rapture position
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:29 pm
  

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DMcKay wrote:
James,

From your choice of verses in this post it sounds like you are not one who believes or supports the Pre-Trib Rapture. I'm not going to try and refute your understanding if this is your sincere point of view. However, one thing that you should be aware of is that Isaiah was led of the Holy Spirit to write this book as a synopsis of the entire Bible. I'm not saying that Isaiah was outlining the Bible, but that this book is practically a synopsis of the Bible. It has the same number of chapters as the Bible has books. The chapters which parallel the books of the Old Testament all have similar content to the books of the OT which they compare to. The chapters which parallel the New Testament also have similar content to the NT books which they parallel.

Many scholars have tried to push this similarity too far, but the chapter which you quote these verses from were written to the Jews and not to those of the Body of Christ. The 12th chapter of the Book of Daniel speaks to the Rapture of the Jews who died looking forward to the Millennial Kingdom. When they are raised to live for 1,000 years under the reign of their Messiah they will have physical bodies with which to repopulate the Earth.

Don M

I'm not disagreeing here but just asking a question.

When Isaiah was written the new testament writings had not come about..obviously. So is it just divine intervention that the chapters and the NT books are similar? And that those particular books got included in the canon?


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 Post subject: Re: Reasons for holding a Pre-Tribulation Rapture position
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:56 pm
  

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DMcKay:

Actually I do believe in the pre-trib rapture almost to a fault. I do not remember at the moment as to why I posted the previous scriptures but I do know they are separate applications as to the rapture of the church.
This resurrection Isaiah mentioned is also in line with the "valley of dry bones". You cannot have a resurrection of a nation without first having a resurrection of the people.

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 Post subject: Re: Reasons for holding a Pre-Tribulation Rapture position
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:28 pm
  

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I would put my ideas to paper but our Pastor isn't here to say yay or nay.


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Isaiah 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.


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